Podcast

Peter Handley:
Hi there, good day. Welcome to North Bay’s Heritage Diary. Listen up and we shall weave for you tales of days and times gone by, which can inform today and show the way to tomorrow. This Municipal Heritage Committee podcast looks at our town, our people,,and our stories. This time we open our diary of voices from our past for a conversation with the late Professor Bob Surtees—one of the original seven Nipissing University faculty, and author of Northern Connection about the early days of the ONR, and an authority on Native treaties. This was originally recorded in 2001 as part of the Cogeco cable series, “Life Is.” In it he talks about the early days of Nipissing, and teaching Canadian history. Please excuse any dated references.

Peter Handley:
Are you happy? I'm going to hit you with this right off the top. I was going to do it later...But are you happy that you stayed here in North Bay and at Nipissing?

Robert Surtees:
Oh, absolutely. I'm thrilled. When we first came, I was the only person who was no. Actually, there were two of us who were local, who were on faculty; Charlotte Ames was a local teacher. And I grew up here. While that is, I went to high school here. And then I was lucky enough to come back just when the university was starting. But the others were all new. And I recall talking to Stan Lawler, who is also one of the original cast, as you say. And at the time, I was planning to stay for my entire career. What is a bit amusing is that I was planning to enter politics and told him that, and he said, "No, he would be here for a couple of years and then move on." While we all know what happened, Stan. As a matter of fact, I ran for school board that first year. And Stan helped me, and I lost. Then a few years later, Stan ran for aldermen, and I helped him, so we got it right. The second time and of course, Stan, like me, is more than happy, Peter. We're thrilled with the decision to stay here because we are thrilled with what's happened to our institution, which began in a condemned Home for the Aged with 49 students. We used to laugh and say, well, there were 50. But somebody left the door open, and one got away. But that's what we started with seven faculty and 49 students in the original Cassellhome, which was actually condemned. We had to do some work to make it fit safety standards. And we were there for five years on that campus. As was Canadore, which was then Cambrian, it was in the old school Worthington Street School. And so there were these two new institutions starting at the same time.

Peter Handley:
And now look at them.

Robert Surtees:
Well, Yeah. It's pretty sensational, I think. We were all very young and very excited. Very excited, very excited about it. And now we're just as excited, except we're all 35 years older.

Peter Handley:
Politics, I had no idea you wanted to be in... You actually had designs, did you?

Robert Surtees:
Well, I consider politics to be the most important profession that we've got. I really do. I know that...

Peter Handley:
--More important than teaching?

Robert Surtees:
Oh, far more important than teaching, far more important than medicine, far more important than anything else. And the reason is very simple. It is the political arena, which provides the rules of the game, which provides the nature of society, which provides the way in which we will have or not have freedoms. And therefore, I know that it is not very popular to say this about politicians because they are condemned so very often, and I think, unfortunately. But forget about the politicians themselves, think about what the profession is, and it is the one which sets the tone, and the rules, and the economy, and the way we behave. And it is within that milieu we have other important activities that are permitted to flourish. Because we have the right political environment. You haven't heard this before.

Peter Handley:
But I'm surprised. You ran for school board and lost. And that was it. But yet you're standing up here, well sitting here and saying, you know, politics is what makes the country go?

Robert Surtees:
Well, I was very, very active for about a decade after I came back to North Bay and in political activities. I did run for school board, and I didn't make it. I think I might have had I run again. I was only 26 years old at the time.. But along the way, things prevent someone from becoming active. You did not become active until rather later. And the most famous of our current politicians did not seek political office for quite some time. Now, once he did, I'm referring, of course, to the Premier. He proved to be very good at it first as school board and then later in the legislature and currently holds the top job in the province. But as his list is opened or as yours opened, mine sort of became somewhat eclipsed, as I proceeded with my two careers, my family career with a lot of children. And my really very strong desire to make our institution as good as I could help make. And so, the one eclipsed the other as it turned out. But yes, I have strong feelings about the importance of politics. Oh, yes. Sometimes I regret that I did not pursue that one venue that I still considered to be so darned important. But I know we didn't expect to be talking about it at all.

Peter Handley:
It's evanescent. It's something that's I mean, you're a big name. Mike, Michael, for example, you know, he's Premier now but yes, 10 years from now. I mean, he'll be, in all likelihood, just another citizen.

Robert Surtees:
Yes.

Peter Handley:
You're teaching has affected kids for many years. Your writing hopefully affects them in the same way... yes. So you're maybe having a more lasting effect. Although Michael Harris is not a good example because he's had a lasting effect on the province. Most politicians don't have that effect on a province or even a city.

Robert Surtees:
Well, or even if they do, it is very finite. And it is more finite and the potential for someone in one of the professions, particularly teaching, in which the potential good that we can do and the potential bad. But the potential good that we can do it is very long-standing. I've been doing it for 36 years. 34 years at Nipissing. And then I taught high school for two years before that. And I hope that I've had that good effects, etc., either in teaching or coaching or the different things that I've done along the way.

Peter Handley:
History? The whole time.

Robert Surtees:
Yes.

Peter Handley:
Okay. When I went to school, I had different types of history teachers; most of them, unfortunately, were deadly boring. They were date conscious. They were "write this on the board and copy it" sort of things. And now granted university is a different, whole different ball of wax. I'll ask you, are you a good teacher? Can you make it come alive?

Robert Surtees:
I think I can, yes. And I think I do. And that isn't terribly humble, and I apologize.

Peter Handley:
I don't know what your specialty is in history. What do you specialize in; tell me about what that is.

Robert Surtees:
Specialty? Obviously, one of the major fields that I do is Canadian history. And obviously, one of the fields within Canadian history that I deal with is native history. Indeed, most of the books that I've published have been in the field of native history or native land claims in the light. I also teach a course in military history. I teach a course in American history. I have taught a course in ancient history. So one of the things that one does, when one begins at an institution is become very versatile help because we have to provide a range of courses, which require that we learn a range, of course, I don't know quite what it is that you would find as an example.

Peter Handley:
Military history? That's interesting because I knew he had been involved with native history. You did a whole book on Indian treaties. I remember that was one of your first books. Military History, the story that Canada came alive in World War One, at Vimy Ridge?

Robert Surtees:
Yes.

Peter Handley:
As it came alive as a nation. Do you believe that?

Robert Surtees:
Are you referring to the account by Pierre Burton? The...

Peter Handley:
There have been others that said that this was a turning point in the way Canada was viewed by the rest of the world.

Robert Surtees:
Well, I wouldn't pinpoint Vimy. Certainly, the second battle of Ypres, and probably even more predominant for Canadians, was Passchendaele. But Vimy, of course, is the one event that has been cited most often. I suspect because more people have written about Vimy. And we paid a terrible price at Vimy, 6000 teenagers. I keep saying that. Obviously, some of them weren't teenagers, but none of them was an old man.
Peter Handley:
How do you make something like that that is so foreign to our young people today? I mean, trench warfare is like back to the days of the Saracens almost as far as their the knowledge or their feelings—

Robert Surtees:
Probably more than the Saracens are something, and you're referring to the wide-open slashing warfare of the cavalry and the like. That's actually probably something that our youngsters today could understand more than trench warfare. Certainly, the participation of the Canadians in the First World War, whether it be at Ypres, or Passchendaele, or Vimy, or any of the other really remarkable incidents along the way. Such as Wop May, who probably shut down the Red Baron. Although Australian ground fire claims that they indeed performed that. But warfare is such an incredibly terrible experience, on the one hand, that brings out such enormous courage and such enormous marvellous characteristics in the men and women who fight it. And with respect to the First World War, I deal with it. I really, you know, I only get a couple of classes on the, on the war, because I have to cover the whole of Canadian history in the seven months.

Peter Handley:
But is that a problem?

Robert Surtees:
Of course, it is.

Peter Handley:
Would you prefer to zero in?

Robert Surtees:
We do that as well. But let me go back to the warfare thing. There's in that there's the story of the war itself and the remarkable courage. Some of the remarkable individual events, and I mentioned Wop May in particular because there you can identify it was one man in an airplane, against one more man in an airplane. At Vimy, we sent 6000 people over the top against machine guns and barbed wire, and all those other darn things that those devils-

Robert Surtees:
The fact is that we sent these 6000 men, and by God, they held when they shouldn't have. It was an event of enormous pride, not only for the young men who did it, but for all of the friends, and relatives, and everything else back home who learned about it. And they were fiercely proud not only because of the event and their accomplishment but also they were wearing a Canadian uniform. And so, in the sense that the First World War inspired a sense of inherent home grown patriotism, then yes, I would agree with those who say Canada became alive as a nation at that point. But Canada had been a nation before and after, with certain other events that have inspired, that have inspired both unity and patriotism and sometimes division. You know some sometimes intense division. What I attempt to do is try to explain, and to some extent, I perform as much as I teach during my lectures. But what I tried to do is try to place this event within the context of the times and keep emphasizing the nature of the people who were in fact engaged in these activities. Whether it is the rebellions of 1837, which was a divisible event, the contributions during the First World War, which were, for the most part, unifying, the Korean experience. The warfare, the warfare instances, which for the most part, have been unifying events, and try to place it in context. We need historians to provide a degree of structure and interpretation to this study. And I don't mean that we have to adopt a Marxist view, or a social view, or a conservative view. I simply mean that we have to provide some order; otherwise, history becomes simply a series of things, events,

Peter Handley:
Scattergun facts.

Robert Surtees:
Exactly, scattergun facts. So we need structure. We need some interpretation. We need some themes, but at the same time hold a person's interest, whether it's you, or me, or my student, or anybody else are the details, the interesting details of how this person did this, and maybe some of the background associated with this individual. And thus, it behooves the historian to integrate the structure with interesting and significant details. Let me try to pull one example, when I was doing the "Northern Connection," which is basically the early story of the Ontario Northland Railway, which at the time, of course, was called the Temiskaming in Northern Ontario Railway. And one of the points I wanted to make, or one of the themes I wanted to stress concerning the early years, say, between 1905 and 1914, from the beginning of the railway, which is 1902. And the First World War was the way in which an amazing variety of people came into the North as a result of the railway. And so I have a small section in the book in which I indicate how certain movie stars made their way up here, another I indicate that some royalty came up here. But also, I make reference to an announcement whereby a man named Leonard Miller will address a group in Cobalt. And at the time, he was a member of the Salvation Army, but he had 25 years earlier ridden with Jesse James and worked in the area. So he was a reformed bank robber, or a train robber was what he was. And so, as I say, in that particular little section, the theme was that of newcomers and diversity of newcomers. And here are some examples. And some people found that interesting. I hope you did.

Peter Handley:
That Miller guy, that’s a great story. What was he promoting?

Robert Surtees:
Oh, he was, well, he was promoting the Salvation Army.

Peter Handley:
Promoting? Oh! All right, okay.

Robert Surtees:
He was reformed. And he was talking to a bunch of largely young men in cobalt, which today has about 4000 people, but that, at that time, had probably 20,000 because of the silver mines in the light. Haileybury was two or three times the size that it was then, and New Liskeard, of course, was also bigger. So the Triton, you know, which today among them has perhaps 12,000, maybe 15,000 people was bigger than present-day North Bay, for a brief time, It had an opera house and everything.

Peter Handley:
The Ontario Northland Railway, the whole story. When you, I mean, you've gone back, have a book on it, and you see what's happening to it now. Does that bother you at all? How do you feel about it?

Robert Surtees:
Well, I find it distressing, to some degree, that something that has been this vital and this important is fading. I think it's inevitable. The railway that we have today is still very important for the North. I can't see the railway closing. There are still benefits to be made from using rail for certain kinds of freight. There are areas of the North such as Moosonee, which still require some access other than air, or snowmobile, or canoe, which of course, it was always obtained by canoe. But you know, in the time that I'm talking about when I talk about those early years of the railway, the railway was more than just this link. The people on the railway were the main leaders in the community. Because their positions were such that it was they who could arrange for this siding or could arrange for this special train to go from Cobalt to the Porcupine to play a game of hockey, and everything along the line was to a very great extent dictated by the line itself. And we were fortunate, I think, in the early history of our railway, that we had some really very remarkable people who were really new Northerners, but they very quickly became Northerners. I'm thinking of George Lee, for example, who came from him from the old Pembroke Kingston Railway, into the Temiskaming in Northern Ontario Railway. And there were hundreds of people like that. As a matter of fact, almost everybody who was in the north in 19-, I don't know, let us say 1920, was a newcomer. By definition, it was a frontier. There used to be an expression when I was living in South Porcupine. And I'm now talking about the 40s and 50s. We used to say there are no grandparents in the north. Okay, we all had grandparents, but they weren't in the north. My grandparents were in Chalk River, somebody else's was in Sudbury, and somebody else's was in Ottawa. And this society that I grew up in was actually a society of 30 and 40-year-old men and women. There were very few people in their 60s or 70s. Because the community had only been around, let's see, I moved there in 1946; South porcupine was at that point, 35 years old. So it's, and this is the sort of thing that I try to embellish my lectures with. That is the personal details, and specific details about events that are really quite, I think, quite interesting.

Peter Handley:
Now you've written "The Northern Connection," and that takes the history of the ONR up to?

Robert Surtees:
Well, really, up until the end of the Second World War, I carry it through in the last chapters through to what was then the present, which was 1992. What I'm working on now, of course, is again, commissioned by the railway or by the Commission, commissioned by the Commission. And that is a study, of the northeastern region of Ontario and northwestern region of Quebec, before the railway. That is the early explorations, both from the north, Henry Hudson and Captain James, from the south, Father Abel. And, and then, of course, Red Zone and the competition for control of this Northeastern corridor. For gosh, you know, Peter 200 years before, the railway, it's, to me this story is even more fascinating...

Peter Handley:
But difficult to research. Is that right?

Yes, it's more difficult in as much as the data is not as broad. When I did "the Northern Connection," I had the archives of Ontario Northland to draw from. For this, I have to draw from the Jesuit relations from the various French sources for the period up to up to say, well, really right up until the present, because a good portion of Northern Ontario is Francophone. The longest period from the days of Champlain through to the days of the conquest. This region was, for the most part, dominated by the French traders and the French missionaries. But there was always that element from the north with Hudson's Bay Company in particular. But that was that the story of the north in those days really was a competition between...as a matter of fact, that's the title of the book, "Between the River and the Bay." The river being the St. Lawrence River, and the bay being James Bay, and the competition for control of that hinterland. Which, for the most part, provided the economic foundation for Canada, not just for the East but for Canada and I feel safe from 1608 when Champlain came through, too, I would say 1800. This marked-

Peter Handley:
The exploration sparked a lot of things, did it not? Going beyond that-

Robert Surtees:
Well, it certainly sparked that. But it was the main source of income for this entire period. See, a great deal is known about the voyage years and the incredible romantic stories about the move into the West. And that's true. But the country paid its bills on the first take between North Bay and James Bay for about 150 years. And it was the best fur you see. The original careers came from were developed in this region.

Peter Handley:
I want to ask you if you had to pick one: write, research, or teach. Which would it be?

Robert Surtees:
But you see, I don't think that one can do what you just suggested. I think they're all integrated. I think that researching, writing, and teaching are all part of the same envelope. And I can teach by reading the works of others. So I can do that. I can research the things that other people have already researched—But there's not really much point in that. But what I produce in the classroom comes from research, and believe it or not, from writing, because it is by writing that one imposes order and structure, and quite frankly, on the course of events, and I find myself writing something and realize, oh my goodness, I've drawn this conclusion and this conclusion from this and this, and it just doesn't fit. So you have to stroke it all out. And go back and begin again. And you know the best people to tell you when a wrong turn has been made. Are the people that say, "But sir, didn't you just mention last week that this," and you say, "oh my goodness, he's right, or she's right." And I'm one of those who firmly believe that research, writing, and teaching are all or, if you will, scholarship and teaching are simply the inverses and adverse of the same coin. I think they go together.

Peter Handley:
Many years more teaching to you, Bob.

Peter Handley:
This edition of our Heritage Diary voices from the past with the late Bob Surtees which was originally recorded in 2001 for the Cogeco cable TV production, “Life Is,” and is rebroadcasted in this format through the courtesy of Cogeco Your TV. Thank you for spending some time with us and listening to our stories. These productions are put together by the North Bay Municipal Heritage Committee, not only to retell old tales, but hopefully to kindle interest in area history. Local lore is important to any community. We shouldn't let it go unremarked and unremembered. Views expressed in this podcast are not necessarily those of the corporation of the city of North Bay, or its employees. Join us next time, when we flip another page of the diary of our shared past. You can reach us at Peter.Carello@cityofnorthbay.ca. Production – Casey Monkelbaan and Peter Carello. Pete Handley speaking.