Podcast

Peter Handley:
Hi there and good day! Welcome to North Bay's Heritage Diary. Listen up, and we shall weave for you tales of days and times gone by which can inform today and show the way to tomorrow. This municipal Heritage Committee podcast looks at our town, our people, and our stories. This time we open the diary of our voices from the past for a conversation with the late Cup Gunning—former Nipissing University librarian, and a noted local historian, authoring more than a half dozen books on North Bay's civic and military history, key reference for many of the Municipal Heritage Committee's Heritage site plaques. This was originally recorded in 2001 as part of the Cogeco cable series “Life Is.” Please excuse any dated references.

Cup Gunning:
North Bay has a fascinating history. And it's all there for an individual who has the time to dig it out, to research it.

Peter Handley:
Your real name is Cuthbert, and to me, that's a really old-fashioned name.

Cup Gunning:
Yes, my mother's maiden name was Marian Cuthbert.

Peter Handley:
Oh, it’s not a first name.

Cup Gunning:
No, I was firstborn. So they combined the two surnames, and I resulted in Cuthbert Gunning.

Peter Handley:
Now, did you like that as a youngster?

Cup Gunning:
Well, I don't recall that as much. But my buddies all shorten that and call me Cup Gunning. It's a nickname you've never heard before. You'll never hear again. I've gone along with that all my life.

Peter Handley:
You weren't born here

Cup Gunning:
I was born in Chalk River in the Ottawa Valley. And on my grandfather's farm, actually back in 1927. And then my dad was CPR. Road master, the youngest CPR Road master in Canada at that time at 32 years of age, on the chalk river to North Bay section of the CPR.

Peter Handley:
Do you know how long the family was established in the Chalk River area in the Ottawa Valley?

Cup Gunning:
Yes, they had to have been there since about 1880. My great grandfather came in and cued the farm that 200 acres out of standing forest for us, and that was passed down through the generations after that.

Peter Handley:
How did you get here?

Cup Gunning:
Again, because of my father's work with the CPR. He was appointed Road master. And the base for the last section of the CPR, Chalk River to North Bay, was here in North Bay. So we moved here to North Bay.

Peter Handley:
And you became a microbiologist. What put you in that direction?

Cup Gunning:
In high school, my stronger subjects were in the sciences and biology in particular. As a result, taking biology to another step, I went into microbiology. And that was four years at the University of Guelph and two years following that for a master's degree. One year, subsequent to that in the Ph. D program. But being married then and our family arriving, the grant for PhDs back in the 1954 period was pretty small. And we just had to have an increase in income. So then, through a classmate of mine, I learned of a position within the pharmaceutical industry and international company and applied and was accepted.

Peter Handley:
Okay, had you ever written anything at that point other than school essays or university essays?

Cup Gunning:
Just my master's thesis in microbiology.

Peter Handley:
That's it

Cup Gunning:
That was it.

Peter Handley:
What got you into the world of books, from drugs to books?

Cup Gunning:
Well, I think actually, Peter. It had started when I was about eight years old when I started reading Zane Grey books. And from then on, it was books, books, books, through elementary, High School, post-High School studies.

Peter Handley:
Are you a great reader, then?

Cup Gunning:
I enjoyed reading very much. And that got me interested in library science. And with the North York system, as you know, a suburban area of Toronto, they were looking for somebody with a biological background. I applied and was accepted. So it was more books. And then, when Nipissing University started in 67, one year later in 68, they again wanted a library administrator. I applied and was accepted there. So we sit here today as a result.

Peter Handley:
And you were with Nipissing, from 1968, till?

Cup Gunning:
About eight years ago. So we're looking at 1993

As a librarian coming in today is coming into a well-established library system. But when you went in there, at that point, it must have been sort of guide yourself by the seat of your pants sort of thing.

Cup Gunning:
The building itself was the original home for the aged on Castle Street. And the classes were taught throughout the building. The library was maybe twice the size of the studio. And when the enrollment increased to increase the library, a hole was cut in the floor and stairs put in, and we took over similar square footage in the basement. And a good friend of mine who passed away just recently, Bob Surtees, helped me move about 5000 books from the main floor down to the basement. So this was the start of the library at Nipissing College then. And 1972, of course, we joined forces with Canadore College, and moved up out of the new quarters on the hill, in my estimation, the most beautiful campus anywhere in Canada. And from there on. Of course, the library was extended, extended, extended, and they're putting another big extension on it at the present time.

Peter Handley:
Have you ever thought about doing a book on Nipissing? If not, I mean, you came in not too long after they got going.

Cup Gunning:
Yes, that's right, one year.

Peter Handley:
So you'd have access to all sorts of great stuff.

Cup Gunning:
And there is a lot of primary material available. That's a possibility.

Peter Handley:
It has to be done. We're at the stage now. Or it's got to be done.

Cup Gunning:
I think even more fundamental than that is the history of education in North Bay. I have approached a number of very qualified people to do that. I haven't been able to twist their arm hard enough to get them actively researching or writing the history of education, explaining to them that the first class was held in a boxcar in the CPR yards in 1882, with five students and a so-called teacher. So education has come a long way since 1882.

Peter Handley:
When you're doing these things, are you still thinking like a librarian? Are you seeing gaps?

Cup Gunning:
I don't think so. No, I'm concentrating on the flow of events here in North Bay. And we have at our fingertips a goldmine of fundamental primary information in the microfilm of the North Bay Nugget back to 1921. Its predecessor, then the Cobalt Nugget, which was printed here in North Bay, takes us back to 1909. And it always had a column on events happening in North Bay. So this is all on microfilm. I don't know how many miles of there are, but...

Peter Handley:
Some of them are not very good quality too

Cup Gunning:
That's a fact. That's a fact. And the time required, of course, perusing all that is extensive.

Peter Handley:
As well as looking at the microfilm, do you talk to people l? Do you get people's some of the Pioneer families and Pioneer people here?

Cup Gunning:
Well, actually, the people that came in at that time, of course, have all passed on that being over 100 years ago. But in my book, “North Bay Start Point”, in each chapter, I have a quote. They're taken from the North Bay Nugget back in the 1920s of people who arrived in the very beginning of North Bay. So those are word-for-word quotes that appear in that particular book. So you get the colour, the angles, the ups and downs experienced by those people at that time. You almost relive the experience.

Peter Handley:
Are you more comfortable dealing with written material or microfilm material? As opposed to dealing with, with a live individual?

Cup Gunning:
The former with the...

Peter Handley:
With the research written.

Cup Gunning:
Yes, the written primary material has many different sources. It's not only the microfilm and the North Bay Nugget. There are, of course, books sources and, and journal sources and other sources. But doing it that way, you have a chance to reread it, digest it, and formulate your own presentation of those events. And what you think is, is the best readable form.

Peter Handley:
Now. Are you a reporter? In a sense? Are you a creative writer? Or are you a researcher? Of those three things, which, in your estimation, is the most important to your work?

Cup Gunning:
Oh, the research! No question about it. No question about it, because it's the most interesting to start with. And you couldn't do the other two options without those basic primary sections of information.

Peter Handley:
Do you find that your writing now is any different from when you started putting these books out?

Cup Gunning:
Yes. For instance, the one that I wrote first, “North Bay's Home Front: North Bay the Warriors,” which is sold out now. Those are all my recollections; I'd use no resources at all, just recall. North Bay and the period 1939 to 45. What went on here during the war, and my recollections as a youth then growing up here? But, following that into the other books, then the research of journals, primary documents, etc., comes into play.

Peter Handley:
Your research skills, are self-taught as well?

Cup Gunning:
To a degree, but acquired in the beginning, doing my master's degree in microbiology, where research was very, very essential.

Peter Handley:
You've got a book on “Fort Chippewa,” which was from 1939 to 1945. And tell me what Fort Chippewa was. Because this is before my time here, and I know very little about it if anything.

Cup Gunning:
It's a location first, Peter. Where Chippewa High School is today and Troy armouries. That was where Fort Chippewa was. There was no bypass at the time. And it was on a direct route of adults and children's going to the ski club. So that was all open country there. And they built this army camp. And I believe it was in late 1939, along with 32 other army camps across Canada. But this was unique fort Chippewa was a unique camp. And for this, for this reason, all the men that were brought in there were illiterate. They had grown up in remote parts of Ontario and also northern Quebec, some from Manitoba, with no chance of any schooling. But they had turned 17 and a half, they were eligible for the army.

Peter Handley:
And they could shoot a gun, too, in all likelihood.

Cup Gunning:
Yes, that's right. They brought them in, and they taught them to read and write, as well as basic infantry training.

Peter Handley:
Well, that's fascinating. In other words, they were teachers there.

Cup Gunning:
Yes. Yes.

Peter Handley:
As well as teaching how to march and military drills...

Cup Gunning:
And it continued on as a unique camp in that unique respect until 1943, when there was a similar one opened, as I recall it, Joliet Quebec, for French-speaking Canadians. So that was the Fort Chippewa

Peter Handley:
Where the Troy armouries went, I can recall the original armouries up there. Pretty dilapidated, beaten up, almost deserted buildings.

Cup Gunning:
Those were part of Fort Chippewa

Peter Handley:
Oh, they were?

Cup Gunning:
Yes. They were all framed buildings, including the huge drill hall. But, all after the war either fell apart or were dismantled.

Peter Handley:
Now, you have an interest in the military?

Cup Gunning:
Yes.

Peter Handley:
Do you have any regrets? Do you think...because you were born a bit too late for World War Two?

Cup Gunning:
Yes, I've said it for my son in particular. I only have one major disappointment in my life. And that was that I wasn't old enough to get into the armed forces during the Second World War. I actually did. To correct that. As soon as I turned 17 and a half, a buddy and I grabbed the night train to Ottawa, joined the Navy at HMCS Carlton there. And we gave our age, a little, more than we actually were. They did the preliminary paperwork and the medical examination. They said, "Go on home, boys, we will call you when we need you." This was March of 1945. Well, as you know, of course, a couple of months later, the war was over. And we're never called in. But the military has always interested me.

Peter Handley:
Can you go back to the start of that? Why? Do you know why? It wasn't your family. Your dad was not a military man. He was a railroad man.

Cup Gunning:
But I was in the sea cadets for three years at that time. And that's where I got the basic interest in the military, the Navy in particular. And that led to the joining, as I described it, and two more years in the sea cadets here and then at university, in the University Naval Training division. So I've had a marginal association with the armed forces.

Peter Handley:
Sailor-wannabe, in a sense.

Cup Gunning:
That’s right.

Peter Handley:
Is that where this Cadet Corps story comes from?

Cup Gunning:
Yes, that discusses the Army Cadet Corps, the Sea Cadet Corps, the air Cadet Corps in Canada. I think there were nine altogether, as I recall. Five army Cadet Corps, three air Cadet Corps and one secret corp. And it goes back to the First World War when the army cadets wore the putties, the same as Armed Forces personnel at that time wore.

Peter Handley:
So this was learning, a military learning exercise, that sort of thing?

Cup Gunning:
Definitely.

Peter Handley:
And they're still going now, cadets?

Cup Gunning:
Yes,

Peter Handley:
Do you still have an interest in that?

Cup Gunning:
I think for youth, there is not an equal to cadet training for these reasons. It teaches respect for your individual's appearance, respect for authority, and respect for your country. And I'm totally behind it.

Peter Handley:
Would you say that you're a spare the rod and spoil a child type?

Cup Gunning:
Well, I'll put it...

Peter Handley:
If the military is a strict, strict upbringing, in a sense,

Cup Gunning:
I certainly believe with children and youth that discipline is required. To what extent, of course, that's debatable. But certainly debatable and some sort of figures to follow. Some examples to follow.

Peter Handley:
Does it bother you when you see young people today? When you see some of the things go on and read?

Cup Gunning:
I would have to say yes because I think that they are being shortchanged. And I blame a lot of it on the media, what they see on and read what's going on worldwide in North America. And they're aping that. And they miss out on what I think is a better life than they are experiencing. And it's because of a lot of that.

Peter Handley:
“North Bay the Lean Years 1929 to 1939” is the largest and longest book you've put out, I'm assuming. Was it the most difficult for you to do? Because you weren't fastening on one thing for Chippewa, Cadets, North Bay's war activity, you're dealing with a complete lifestyle from 29 to 39, a decade of adversity, as you call it.

Cup Gunning:
Yes. The depression years, I have treated in this matter. I looked at all available sources year by year, rather than following one aspect of it through the whole 10 years. I would take year by year to bring in the interlocking factors that people experienced, what went on, and it was all drawn from primary sources because I was too young to remember at that time,

Peter Handley:
Right and even your parents wouldn't have been able to help you because they weren't living here.

Cup Gunning:
No, that's right.

Peter Handley:
Is this your best book? Or would you...

Cup Gunning:
It depends

Peter Handley:
Or is your best book, your last book.

Cup Gunning:
That's my feeling. Yes. This is a particular 10 year period, and the span of coverages is relatively short, compared to the one that I've written most recently.

Peter Handley:
You've also got a book on HMCS North Bay, which, and I've heard this...Tell me the story of this. Why did we have a craft? And there was one CBC recently was telling us about the HMS Kapuskasing.

Cup Gunning:
Oh, yes.

Peter Handley:
Was this a similar story to that?

Cup Gunning:
Very much so. During the war, Corvettes, of which north bay was one, were built as convoy escorts, plying the North Atlantic between Quebec City or St. John's, Newfoundland, and England. And that was their major role: Convoy escorts. So the North Bay was built at Collingwood in 1943. It served through to the end of the war and then was decommissioned at Serral, Quebec, turned over to Casey Irving at St. JOHN, New Brunswick. Stripped of all our armament, made into a freighter, in other words, and interestingly enough, Peter, she's still afloat. She's working out of Miami, Florida, a bucket of rust, as you can well imagine. And my good fortune was with that the Ministry of National Defense has provided me with a multitude of pictures of the warship North Bay as it was in her wartime career. And some since then, as she was stripped of her armament and one taken, I believe in 93, showing her dilapidated condition.

Peter Handley:
This was part of a interest-raising way to try and get people in the North Country to become more involved in the war effort, in some way, shape or form.

Cup Gunning:
By naming ships after them?

Peter Handley:
Yeah,

Cup Gunning:
I think that was a factor, of course, but it was a standard procedure in the Royal Navy. And in the US Navy, to name some of the smaller ships after communities. So that was fundamental behind it.

Peter Handley:
So anything like the extent of likes the hats with the North Bay on it,

Cup Gunning:
Yes. All gone.
I have them all at home in my study. But in actual service today, they're all gone. Of course. Yes. The bell-bottom trousers, for instance.

Peter Handley:
Do you have a full uniform?

Cup Gunning:
No, I don't have that. But the bell-bottom trousers, at that time, pressed inside out, so you had a crease that went in instead of stood out. Then they were pressed. There were seven-folds pressed in the bottom called seven seas, in keeping with the nautical aspect of it. And of course, the collar that went outside your top, and the circular hat, as you mentioned, they the trademark of the sailor in those days. And in this case with HMCS North Bay.

Peter Handley:
Do you have a hat?

Cup Gunning:
I have the Ribbon but no hat. But the bosins pipe that the BB, the equivalent of a sergeant major in the army, I have that. I have as well the key, two keys, one from the ammunition locker of HMCS North Bay and the other room from the captain's confidential file on the bridge. Those I have mounted in my study. So those are a few pieces of memorabilia that I have. At the local Legion, of course, is the Bell, from HMCS North Bay. And this is a shocker, in my estimation, on the forward gun position of that Corvette. A city provided two crests that were mounted on either side of the forward gun, the red HMCS North Bay. It had a motto on it. They were returned to the city after the war after the chip was decommissioned. They hung on the wall in the Old City Hall. When that was demolished. I made inquiries as to where those were. Nobody knew. I put an ad in the paper, "anyone knowing of the whereabouts of these crests from the warship HMCS North Bay would the please contact me." and I got a call. This man said I've got those copies. So when you find them, he said I was kicking around on the rubble of the demolished City Hall, and they're among the plaster were these two priceless crests from his North Bay. He brought them to me. And I took them back to Ron metals, which made them in the first place. They refurbish them, and they are now in the Legion as well. But if you can imagine...

Peter Handley:
Doesn't that show the almost contempt for history at the time, and yet nowadays, everybody's looking for things.

Cup Gunning:
Yes. But to let that happen was just incomprehensible.

Peter Handley:
“North Bay Start Point 1882 to 1914,” published in 1998, is your most recent book, which is again the starting of the city, and that's the one where you had the earlier arrivals talking about their own stories. What's your next project?

Cup Gunning:
I've got one half-finished on North Bay's home front. The city had citizens in World War Two. And it deals with what the people of North Bay did to support the war effort, what went on here in North Bay through the association, the clubs, the churches, schools, etc. and bringing the support of many different kinds to the women and men in the armed forces from North Bay, either in Canada or overseas. So this is about halfway through.

Peter Handley:
How long does it take you to do a book roughly?

Cup Gunning:
I would say about two years. That is in advance right now because I've been doing the series now for the last year for the nugget-

Peter Handley:
The Nugget, yes, very interesting stuff

Cup Gunning:
Of the complete history of North Bay.

Peter Handley:
And you're going to bind them together when you're-

Cup Gunning:
This is what I'm hoping for. I will certainly need some financial support to bring that into book form. But, that would be my aim to bring that detailed information into book form for present-day readers but also for the generations coming along. They would have had access to a reasonably in-depth history of North Bay.

Peter Handley:
Cup congratulations on the work you've done in these books and, and in the future, because you're continuing to do it. It's extremely valuable. A lot of people don't realize it now, but they will when we have all too few reference books on the city. There are some, but not that many.

Cup Gunning:
No, there aren't too many.


Peter Handley:
This edition of our heritage diary voices from the past with the late Cup Gunning was originally recorded in 2001 for the Cogeco cable TV production, “Life Is,” and is rebroadcasted in this format through the courtesy of Cogeco Your TV. Thank you for spending some time with us and listening to our stories. These productions are put together by the North Bay Municipal Heritage Committee, not only to retell old tales, but hopefully to kindle interest in area history. Local lore is important to any community. We shouldn't let it go unremarked and unremembered. Views expressed in this podcast are not necessarily those of the corporation of the city of North Bay, or its employees. Join us next time, when we flip another page of the diary of our shared past. You can reach us at Peter.Carello@cityofnorthbay.ca. Production – Casey Monkelbaan and Peter Carello. Pete Handley speaking.